#13 Oklahom Smoke Divers — Elite FireFighter Training & Why It Matters
Oklahoma Smoke Divers! These guys are not only bada**es but are helping to take firefighter training to the next level. Our guests are Chad Miller and Bryan Lloyd of the Oklahoma Smoke Diver Association. Both are District Chiefs for Tulsa Fire Department (TFD).
The organization conducts advanced firefighter training known as the Oklahoma Smoke Diver course. The association allows Smoke Diver instructors a philanthropic platform to improve the fire service.
Robert Sanchez: So what’s up? Hey, this is Robert Sanchez, host of FireFighter Kingdom. We’re back with my co-host Vince Trujillo and producer. Vince is the guy who makes everything look nice. You see all the graphics on our Facebook and our social media, and thanks to Vince Trujillo for all that. He always gets off on our community segment, starts talking. But we’re fortunate today to have two of Tulsa’s greatest, Bryan Lloyd and Chad Miller.
Chad Miller: That’s debatable.
Robert Sanchez: I’m actually extremely honored to have teached with Chad Miller in the PEP instructor program through the IAFF. Thanks Chad, you’re a great instructor I’ve taught with, and I won’t say that ever again so don’t tell the other PEP instructors, man. How are you doing, Chad?
Chad Miller: Good.
Robert Sanchez: How are you doing Mr. Lloyd?
Bryan Lloyd: Good. Great, man.
Robert Sanchez: Let’s get started here. I just wanted to talk. I was interested, I just started hearing about this smoke diver program. I’ve heard about it just across the country, there’s been teaching and just hearing about it more and more and I was interested and I said, “I’m going to give Chad a call,” and see if you guys would come on and talk about your program and so I’m glad to have you guys. We’re lucky. The FireFighter Kingdom is lucky to have you guys and the rest of the United States or the world, in some cases. We actually have people who download throughout the world and listen to this podcast, so we’re lucky for that.
So let’s just get started. So both of you gentlemen are District Chiefs there in Tulsa District… Correct me if I’m not saying the correct rank structure, but…
Chad Miller: That’s correct.
Robert Sanchez: Okay, so District Chiefs in Tulsa, Oklahoma. And you guys are also the top elders of the Oklahoma Smoke Divers Association, is that correct?
Bryan Lloyd: Yes sir.
Chad Miller: Yes.
Robert Sanchez: Nice. So, Chad, tell me a little bit about yourself, man, the fire career and how’d you get started in the smoke diver program and your career there in Tulsa?
Chad Miller: Man, I’m a third-generation firefighter. So I grew up as a little boy, watching my grandpa and my uncle in the fire service. My dad had a 20-year career as a volunteer in the town that we grew up in, so I got interested in it pretty quickly after school, started as a volunteer firefighter, moved to a paid department in a small town next door in a suburb community of Tulsa, and then Brian and I got hired in the same class, 20 years ago this past April. So we both came to Tulsa at the same time and have just progressed up the ranks.
Just I’m the newest promoted District Chief in our department, as of about a week ago, and, like you said, I’ve done some teaching. Teach with the International Association of Firefighters, I’ve done a little bit of union work for my local. And then teach a lot, also just around the state for various fire service organizations.
Robert Sanchez: Nice, congratulations on the promotion, brother.
Chad Miller: Thank you.
Bryan Lloyd: So, like Chad said, I came on in 2000, and we came on together. I was never around the fire service. I didn’t know any firefighters. How I got into it was, I grew up wanting to be in the military. I knew from age 10, I had the army stuff on my walls, and joined the military. I did six years active duty, I did one deployment, and then I was just at a slow time. There was nothing going on, and I was getting ready to do a third enlistment, and I thought, “Man, if I’m in this one more time I’m going to make this a career.”
Bryan Lloyd: And my uncle was actually a cop in Tulsa and he kept telling me, “Man, I wish I had been a firefighter.” And he’s like, “All these guys are always hanging out.” And anyway I was home on leave, and he’s like, “Man, you need to go check it out. Go talk to them, because you’d be perfect. You’re used to being in a group, being in the military.”
I went down and talked to some of the guys and I said, “You know what?” There was a test coming up, an entrance exam, and I just said, “If I do good on this entrance exam I’m going to get out and if I don’t I’m going to stay in the army.” I did good. They’re like, “Yeah man, you did great. We’ll probably see you in the next class.” So I get out of the army and then I didn’t get hired. So, welcome to the fire service.
But anyway, I just got some job, got hired my second time. And Chad and I had pretty similar careers. We both came out of the academy, we were both on the rescue team, the rescue taskforce. Both of us were different stations, but always liked the training. So our careers always gravitated by each other. The smoke diver thing, how it got going was, in 2003, I was working out at our headquarters gym, and a chief came in. And he goes, “Hey man, you want to go to the most challenging training that I’ve ever been to?”
And he’d just come back from Mississippi’s program. And I said, “Yeah.” I’m 27 at the time, I think I can do anything. I’m like, “Yeah, bring it man, let’s go.” So me and another dude went down there and I completed Mississippi’s program, and loved it. At the time there was three or four guys in Tulsa that had been through. I was still a firefighter in the back of the truck, and I was still learning the job. I just shelved it. Like, “Man, this training would be cool to deliver some day.”
And fast forward 20 years, fast forward about 17, 18 years, I was promoted to District Chief. And I thought I was going out to a district and they came to my station and said, “Hey, congrats, you’re promoted. As of today, you’re the new Training Chief.” So I got in there, started learning that job and I thought, “Man, I got the platform to get ahold of my old contacts and maybe we can bring this program to Tulsa.” A lot of guys were interested in it, and it just took off from there, man.
Robert Sanchez: Nice. So good thing you passed your firefighter test a second time or you’d be a cop, probably, because that’s what always happens.
Bryan Lloyd: Man, I don’t know. I joke around, I agree. I don’t know how old you are, man, you’re a lot younger than me, but I grew up watching Miami Vice. They had the fast cars and the boats and everything, and I thought that was being a cop. Once I realized that that’s not it at all, I’m like, “I’m out man, give me the firefighting gig.”
Robert Sanchez: Right, right. Yeah, that’s what I tell all the cops around here, man. There’s some friends of mine, I say, “You couldn’t pass the firefighter exam, so you’re cops now, so you’re stuck with it. Look at this dream now,” that’s what I tell them. No, they’re really good friends of mine.
So I’m sure everybody watches, or used to watch Live P.D., man. Tulsa, there’s some crazy things that happen down there. I didn’t realize that.
Bryan Lloyd: Yeah, man. We’re friends with a bunch of those cops, and yeah, it’s crazy. It’s not that big of a city, but for whatever reason a lot of crazy stuff happens here, so [crosstalk 00:06:54] …
Robert Sanchez: Well, it’s like Albuquerque. I’m sure you hear about them. Breaking Bad and everything else, but.
Bryan Lloyd: Oh yeah, I’m an addict.
Robert Sanchez: Yeah, so I mean, over here it’s crazy with this COVID thing. I mean, I don’t know, is it as crazy down there as it is over here? How is it in the fire station?
Bryan Lloyd: That’s what he’s doing right now is the COVID response and all that.
Chad Miller: We’re like everybody else, man. At one point in team, we had literally 15% of our field personnel off on quarantine at the beginning. And we’ve been monitoring that since the beginning. I had a unit up there that is… We track all of our people that are sick or in quarantine. And we’ve gotten a lot better. Over the last few months, we’ve made some changes to putting people off versus putting them on a monitored schedule, so they just watch their self for two weeks.
And it’s really helped our numbers a lot. But it’s crazy, man. We went from, “Hey, you can’t go anywhere,” to now you go into a restaurant, you got to have a mask on when you walk in, but as soon as you sit down, apparently, at the table, it’s good, you can take
Bryan Lloyd: You’re safe. You’re safe at the table.
Chad Miller: You’re safe.
Robert Sanchez: Right.
Chad Miller: So none of it makes sense. But we’re just getting by like everybody else.
Robert Sanchez: Right. Yeah, same here, man. It seems like most of the fire houses and fire stations across the United States are dealing with the same stuff. Like you said, at first, it was, “Everybody wear them,” constantly. And now it’s… I shouldn’t say “lax,” because it’s still a requirement here in New Mexico. I mean, you can’t go anywhere without wearing a mask. But like you said, in a restaurant, as soon as you sit down to eat, you don’t have COVID no more, I guess. Or there’s no chance of spreading it.
But anyways, yeah, I was just curious on that. So with the smoke diver program, so how many states… I just noticed there’s some in Georgia, correct? Did you say Minnesota, Oklahoma, how many states actually have a program?
Chad Miller: Like Brian said, Mississippi has a program that runs on its own. I believe Florida was actually the first smoke diver program in the country. Georgia, Indiana, and Oklahoma. All three of our programs are… Georgia was the first one. So back in the late ’70s, some Georgia guys went to the Florida program, and then came back and started the Georgia Smoke Diver’s program. And then off of that program, Indiana’s program and our program, we’re… I don’t know if subsidiaries is the right word, but those two states based their program off of the Georgie Smoke Diver model.
Bryan Lloyd: I think Alabama. There’s five or six states that have them. Florida, Indiana, Georgia and Oklahoma are all our six-day programs. Mississippi’s is five. I think it’s Alabama that has a four-day. So maybe six, seven states. But then there’s no copyright or trademark. So if you Google search it, you could pull up 30. Anyone could use the name, “Smoke Diver.” There might be a one-day smoke diver course in this state. But as far as week-long programs, there’s five to seven states that have a program.
Robert Sanchez: Okay. So the five states that have them here in the United States. Is the curriculum similar through all the states or does every state change it up a little bit, or is it different?
Bryan Lloyd: So, that’s a great question. And pretty much Georgia, Indiana and Oklahoma are all… Georgia, they started it. But they all joke, say, “Hey, we’re taking over the world.” And then we do the Doctor Evil laugh. But it’s pretty much, they have the outline. And then each state, Indiana and us, we follow their outline, but they also encourage us, if we want to change an evolution… Because the premise of the program, it’s taking line-of-duty deaths and then recreating those scenarios and putting firefighters in those scenarios and then showing them how to successfully mitigate the incident.
Bryan Lloyd: So when we were in Georgia last year, they just had a collapsed incident, where luckily the firefighter, they got him out just in time. But they were building a scenario for that. So Georgia and Indiana, we always talk back and forth. So hey, if you have something come up that happens in Tulsa, we have a core number of scenarios that we want to run every class. But maybe if something happens three months ago that we feel like we need to, It’s plug-and-play is what I’m saying. We have the same seven or eight we do every class, but if something happens and we want to change them, there’s no hard, fast rule that says you have to.
Mississippi’s I only know because I went through theirs years ago. It’s a little different. It’s run by the state fire school. And so they have dedicated instructors there that, these five guys are in smoke diver, these five guys are rescue, these five hazmat. So theirs is the same, it never changes. And it’s pretty similar. It’s pretty similar, same premise, taking bad scenarios and showing guys how to get out of them. Theirs is a little more stuff using ropes. You have to be able to tie a Swiss Seat.
So there’s some rappelling stuff. Nothing crazy like that rescue that FDNY did [crosstalk 00:12:35] …
Robert Sanchez: That was crazy, huh? That’s a true rescue right there [crosstalk 00:12:36].
Bryan Lloyd: Yeah, and those guys train all the time for that kind of stuff. But the different on Mississippi’s is, there’s a little more of that kind of stuff like rappelling down. So yeah, but they’re all pretty similar for the most part.
Robert Sanchez: Right. So tell me a little bit about the program. Because I mean, I’m amazed watching the videos and going through firefighter training, obviously, myself. And you know how hard it is and how tired you get. I mean, I don’t think the general public really knows, having the gear on. I mean, we’ve all been there, feeling the heat and all that stuff. And just watching some of the videos and talking to your chat a little bit, and just some other firefighters around the country that I’ve talked to that’ve been through the smoke diver programs. I mean, I wouldn’t argue that you guys are some of the elite, right? I mean, it’s a tough program to get through. And tell me a little bit [crosstalk 00:13:33] … I’m sorry, go ahead.
Chad Miller: Elite, I don’t know that I would put that word. I mean, at the end of the day, man, we’re like everybody else. It is, by far, probably, at least ours, the six-day structured programs, physically and mentally it’s going to be the hardest thing most of our people have ever done unless they’ve been in the military or some other type of service like that.
But our programs are built to Oklahoma, Georgia, Indiana. There’s a PT component built-in the front end of ours each day, and the PT’s not to get you physically fit. It’s not to punish you. It’s to make you tired, both mentally and physically. And then we teach the first half of our class or teaching day. So we teach you skills and then the last half of that class, we’re going to put you into scenarios and we’re going to test the skills that we taught you.
And like Brian said, the goal is to take line-of-duty deaths and give our firefighters the skills they need to be adaptable to get out of those situations. At the same time, you’re developing critical decision-making in as high-stress of an environment as you can get in a training scenario. All of our evolutions are 1403-compliant where we use the live fire and those types of things. So everything is still within the standard.
So we’re trying to make it as stressful as we can. And we’ll use the PT in the day. You do PT like that for six days straight. At the end of day six, you’re whooped. And so, lot of times, you know Robert, as well as we do in the fire service. Bad things don’t happen the minute you get off the truck. It’s after you’ve been there and you’ve worked through two bottles and you’re tired. That’s when the bad stuff happens, and so we have to train that way.
Robert Sanchez: Right. So what’s the main goal? So you go through your program, and not everybody makes it, and I could see why. What’s the main goal? When you have participants come out of your program, what do you want? What’s your goal? What do you want them to have? What tools or training do you want them to have when they get out of your program?
Bryan Lloyd: So that’s a great question. And backing up to the last one you asked is, we came in. Georgia’s program has been around, like Chad said, since the late ’70s and they spearheaded Florida and Georgia. They spearheaded this whole thing. And the motto on the logo, it’s, “The elite few, strong in mind and body.” And for me, it’s hard to wrap my head around that because I’m just some regular dude and I’m like any other firefighter. I don’t think I’m anything special. But I am proud of the accomplishment that I was able to make it through the program.
And if you ask 10 guys what they think it’s about, you’d probably get 10 different answers. But for me, there’s a couple things as the chief elder of the program that I want guys to take away from it, and girls. I went through… In Georgia, there’s a female. [Melissa Russell 00:16:54]. She was the first female that had come through in 30 years. And made it about halfway through the week and went out on a scenario. Well, she came back and made it through with Chad in his class.
So it’s male and female. But what I want guys to bring out of it is, like Chad said, unless you’ve been in the military or played sports at a high level, or done… I don’t know where else, but most guys don’t know what they’re capable of mentally. And the Navy SEALs re-popularized that 40% rule. The militaries use that. I heard it when I was in the military 20 years ago, 25 years ago. It is, when you think you’re done you’ve got so much more left in the tank. But most guys are not ever put in that position. They don’t ever get that kind of adversity. They don’t even know what they’re going to do when they get there.
And that’s what the program, to me, it’s, we want to train guys. It’s like Chad said earlier. Most stuff happens when you breathe down that second air bottle and you’re so tired, you just want to lay down. We get firefighters, we train them to that point and then we put them in these intense scenarios on the fire ground, and we’re just showing them that. We’re teaching them that, to dig down and persevere. The program to me, 50% of it’s teaching men and women mental toughness.
And we always joke. We were teaching class the other day, some subfloor rescue, and we said, “Well, what would you do here?” Like, “I don’t know.” Well, there’s no one else coming. When you call 911 it’s us, man, and you know that, Robert. And we’re trying to teach them. We’re trying to train people to just be able to unlock the potential they have inside of them, okay? And to teach them that when something bad goes wrong, I can stay calm.
And it’s like the military. I was in six years in active duty. And they would put us in this really intense training to show you that, when you’re here in real life, you can reach back in there and say, “Hey, I’ve been here before. I know what to do here.” That’s the smoke diver program broke down to the bare essences. We’re going to take men and women, put them through these horrible scenarios. The first three days, we’re going to give them the tools to be successful, and then we’re going to put them back there. High heat, zero visibility. And we’re going to show them that by relying on your training, by staying calm, you’re going to be able to successfully mitigate this scenario.
But then from there, once they successfully pass that class, we want them to go back. The military calls it a force multiplier. And what that means, they call the special operations, force multipliers. So they will drop a special forces team of 12 men in and then those 12 men will train hundreds. And the reality is, not everyone that comes through the training is going to make it. But myself, Chad, seven or eight other guys from Tulsa made it, and then we were able to come back and take that training, whether everybody can make it through or even wants to make it through, we can still take that training back to our departments and deliver it to the men and women.
And we’ve been teaching classes for a couple years now, from what we learned that one week. So I could go on all day, but in a nutshell, it’s mental toughness and then it’s teaching servant leadership. That’s the two things you hear all week, is that you are nothing special because you had this training, that your goal, your expectation, is to take this training back to your department, back to your community, be a humble public servant. And then give it to the men and women in your community and help them be successful.
It’s not about, “Hey, I’m some bad*** because I’ve been through this program.” Because just like when we referenced that rescue in New York the other day. Those guys have probably forgotten more than we’ve ever learned. All we are is a couple dudes in Oklahoma that are trying to… That saying in the fire service. “We’re trying to leave it better than we found it. We are not the experts but we’re trying to make a difference.” And that’s it, man.
Robert Sanchez: Right. And it hits hard there at home, and I’ve actually had the honor of teaching our fire academy for a year back in 2011. But I mean, when you say firefighters are trapped or if they’re in trouble, like you said, man, you’re not calling 911 because we are 911. There’s no one you’re going to call to help, so you better calm down and help yourself. There’s nobody out there that’s going to come and help you.
So that hits hard. I would say it’s a prestigious honor to be a smoke diver. I mean, just all the training they go through. I mean, I was even just researching and just, like I said, the firefighters I’ve had the good opportunity to talk to in the fire service, but there’s even some smoke diver programs that even have a pool aspect where they throw the firefighters in a pool in full bunker gear and SCBAs. Do you guys do that in your program?
Chad Miller: So we just had our first class back in March, and that is definitely… It wasn’t part of our curriculum in March, because logistically, we couldn’t find a facility to do it. But the Georgia program does it. I believe Indiana does it as well. It’ll be incorporated in our program as we get our logistics worked out. You and I have talked before that… So we had a bad winter storm come through here back in 2007, and one of the fires I went to that night, we’re in the back of this house in a pretty nice neighborhood and one of my guys literally steps off into a pool. I mean, it’s right there at the back door.
And so, you think about, “I’m never going to wind up in water in my gear.” Well yeah, you could. My wife’s family members have a house that has a pool inside the house. So it’s not uncommon to be in situations where we could get into a water scenario. Basements, elevator shafts, in all of your gear. So the purpose of all that is to literally teach our guys that, hey, stay calm, here’s a technique to get out of that gear. You can breathe, that SCBA, that apparatus will breathe underwater, even though it’s not designed to do that.
And if you stay calm and use that air that’s trapped in your gear, you’ll float. As heavy as all that stuff is when it gets wet, if you don’t panic and remain calm, you’ll stay above the water, you can keep your mask on, and you can slowly disassemble your firefighter clothing and then get yourself out of that situation.
Robert Sanchez: Yeah, when I was watching and just talking to you, Chad, I mean, it’s true. I mean, sometimes the things that you think aren’t going to happen, they happen. Like you said, if they have swimming pools in their homes and it’s dark and smokey, we all know what it’s like to be in that situation, it’s hot. And you’re crawling and you fall into a swimming pool. I mean, sometimes firefighters don’t think about that. I know the public don’t think about it. It’s just another danger that we have to be cautioned with in the fire service when you’re doing search or suppression or [crosstalk 00:24:25] …
Chad Miller: Brian and I worked the last year in the same district. And one of the buildings we have, and we actually went and did a survey, is an old hotel that’s been boarded up and the homeless people have gotten in it. And it still, to this day, has a pool on one side in the corner of the building that’s full of water. So you roll off in that thing, making a fire, pitch-black dark and you could make the wrong turn or take the wrong step, you’re neck-deep in that stuff. So it can happen. I mean, it’s a reality, a possibility, more than we probably think.
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Robert Sanchez: Right.
Bryan Lloyd: Especially here in Oklahoma, Robert. I don’t know about New Mexico, but we have real bad flooding here. The weather in Oklahoma, tornadoes, every year I ask myself, “Why do I live in Oklahoma, man?” Because the weather’s just crazy. But we have real bad flooding. And then we had a line-of-duty death a few years ago. Chad was actually friends with the guy, and a drowning. So it can happen. And it’s something… Is it a one-in-a-million deal? Probably. But hey, we got a couple extra hours during the class, it’s awesome training. The military does a similar training, they call it drown-proofing. So yeah, it’s definitely… Maybe it’s one-in-a-million, maybe it helps somebody. But it’s also pretty fun too. It’s pretty cool.
Robert Sanchez: Right. Well, I mean, just watching videos sometimes or just watching the news, sometimes these small departments in the United States, it seems like, when they’re ice rescues or even river rescues, it seems like some of these departments are still wearing bunker gear. And so I mean, that training could come hand-in-hand with a department that still wears bunker gear. I’m not sure it’s the wisest thing to do, but, you still seem them out in boats or rafts in their bunker gear in the middle of a lake or whatever the case may be. So I guess that’s a situation where that training could also come in handy.
Chad Miller: Yeah, it absolutely good.
Bryan Lloyd: I mean, when we teach the… Because that’s something that we’ve actually thought, some departments around here, they were interested. And the first thing we say is, “This is not the uniform for flooding or around water.” You don’t want to be… We’re not showing you this so you can wear the gear around water. In Tulsa it’s like, PFD helmet, and then our shorts and a T-shirt. That’s what we wear on water stuff.
But yeah, like I said, we taught it around, and it’s just that one-in-a-million bad day. It’s just another tool in the toolbox. If it happens, here you go.
Robert Sanchez: Right. Absolutely. And just going back to what you said, Brian, about that New York firefighter, that rescue, I mean, that’s going to be huge news. Those guys are definitely great firefighters. We know they’re in New York, and just watching them, I mean, doing a rope rescue from the rooftop. I mean, we’ve all done rappelling and rope rescue but I mean, doing it with fire, having the chance for the rope to burn. I mean, that’s a great rescue.
Bryan Lloyd: That’s the thing about firefighters and soldiers, athletes. The regular person sees that and they’re like, “Oh, that’s horrible.” I guarantee those dudes, without even knowing them, they’re like, “Oh, hell yeah, this is awesome.” You’re waiting for that your whole career. So we love… You know what I mean? Those dudes were probably… I read a article that said one of the dudes, I think it was the guy that was hanging out. I think his name was Brian something. But he said they’d literally been practicing that technique a few hours before, that day at the station.
So is that something that we’re going to practice in Oklahoma? Yeah, actually, I mean, we do. There’s actually a little component in the smoke diver where it’s bailing out or lowering yourself down. But I promise, when I lived in New York City and I was surrounded by high rises. You know those dudes are practicing that stuff all the time. So I bet those guys were so pumped.
Robert Sanchez: Absolutely.
Bryan Lloyd: Awesome, man.
Robert Sanchez: You know that’s not their first time. I mean, you know they’ve trained a lot, quite a bit and you could tell. So those guys are definitely [crosstalk 00:28:44] …
Chad Miller: Yeah, they made it look easy, man.
Bryan Lloyd: Awesome.
Robert Sanchez: They do. It was great, man. I don’t know, I put it on record, I just watched it a couple times and it was great. So in your guys’ program, what does a firefighter need? How should they prepare to go through your guys’ program and the smoke diver program there in Oklahoma? I mean, obviously you have to be in good shape or you’re not going to pass a program. I mean, what do you suggest? Just quite a bit of running, cardio, upper-body strength?
Chad Miller: Man, so when we started our program, so we’ve trained, in about a three-year time period, Robert, we’ve taken over 20 Tulsa firefighters to Georgia. And so the first time it was me and Brian and six other guys. And we train. The one thing I can tell you, above anything else, is you have to train in your gear. Because you’re going to be in… Everything we’re going to ask you to do, including PT, you’re going to do in your gear.
So there’s a big difference between training in shorts and tennis shoes and training in bunker gear. It’s a game-changer. But our philosophy… And so, if you went and asked a Georgia guy, I think the answer would be, “Hey, find another smoke diver and they’ll tell you what you need to do.” We took a little different approach because we are a new program, and we want our… The program is hard enough all by itself. You don’t have to add any adversity to it. So we actually train… If we’re taking Tulsa guys to Georgia, we have a 17-week program. And it’s crawl, walk, run. And so we build up capacity just in regular PT gear, and then we transition to bunker gear and we break that and we go back. And then we build capacity up in our program.
But we’ve posted all of our stuff online. If you go to our Facebook page, Oklahoma Smoke Diver’s Facebook page, our 17-week program is there for anybody to see. It’s exactly what he and I both done and what we’ve trained other people to do, to go there. And all it’s going to do is physically prepare you for the course. If you show up there thinking that PT is going to get you ready, you won’t make it past the first 10 minutes. Because our PT sessions, they’re created for a purpose. They’re hard. They are difficult. And other than just about every day that you do PT, you’re going to do it in bunker gear with a pack on your back.
Bryan Lloyd: But like Chad said, the PT… And there’s all kinds of stuff out there about this program or that program, and it’s been perceived by some people that the PT is to punish people. So I can say, the one difference between Mississippi and then our program or Georgia’s or Indiana’s is, Mississippi, there’s not PT but you’re doing a lot more evolutions in the day. Mississippi’s program, which it’s awesome. There’s no teaching component. You show up, day one, you do the PT test, you hit the ground running. You’re doing eight evolutions a day. You pass or fail.
Where our programs are… So the point is, by the end of the first day, you’re in full gear, mask on all day doing all this. You’re getting tired by the end of the first day. Where our program, it’s teaching. You’re teaching more the first three days. So we had to figure out a way to get guys tired like Mississippi does, so by the day four, when we’re putting the guys through the scenarios, they’re tired. I can tell you that, I don’t know… Well, actually I do know who runs Indiana’s. Georgia and ours, we’ve got almost every guy that’s on the PT field are ex-military. We had a guy that was army ranger. Got a couple guys that were marines.
So it’s run very professionally. It’s not punishment. It’s just to get the guys fatigued, do it for about an hour, move on, we start the training. So, like Chad said, the 17-week program. But if guys get on the Facebook, what they’ll also see is it’s not all just physical fitness. We might have a day where we say, “Easy three-mile run, practice the Denver Drill.” Or practice forcible entry. We’re still incorporating skills into the training.
But the thing is, once we get past the first month or two, almost everything’s in gear. And we use the analogy of, in Oklahoma, football is the sport in Oklahoma. Almost everyone played football here. And so every group we start training, we’re like, “Hey, when you played football you started off in shorts, and then you went to pads, and then you were training in full gear in preparation for the season.” So, so many firefighters, they don’t train in their gear. They train over here, but then they show up to a house fire and they got all this stuff on and it’s a total game-changer. And you guys know this.
Just putting the gear on and your heart rate, your adrenaline. By the time you walk to the house, you’re at 110 beats per minute if you’re in shape. So if you’re not practicing and all that… It’s like the military used to say, train like you fight. That’s one of our mottoes.
Robert Sanchez: It is.
Bryan Lloyd: Now obviously, we’re wearing clean gear. We’re fortunate that we had about 50 sets donated to us that were out of date. So we’re not saying, train your frontline gear. That’s ridiculous. But we’re fortunate that we have the gear that we can let the guys wear through the training.
Robert Sanchez: Very nice. So for all the firefighters out there listening in FireFighter Kingdom, how do they apply or is there a prerequisite? How do they get into your program for those that are interested?
Chad Miller: So if they just go to our website, which is www.oklahomasmokediver.com, there’s a contact. It looks like most websites. On the top right is a contact tab, and then Brian and I’s email information is both on there and they can send either one of us an email that just says, “Hey, we’re interested in your program.” We’ll send them back a little link so they can fill out some information for us, and then we keep their info and then the next time we are getting ready to do qualification tests for a class, we’ll send them an email.
The other thing is, really, just follow us. Either on our Facebook page or our Instagram, and our links are there on our website as well. Because we put out a lot of information. Even right now, our next class won’t be until March of 2021, but we’re still putting out, “Hey, this is what we did for training today,” or, “This is something we’re doing.” So we kick a lot of information out via our social media platforms.
Robert Sanchez: Okay, great. So we have, my co-host Vince Trujillo, we have a community statement here. And sometimes when you gentlemen and I are talking firefighter stuff, and we use some lingo that maybe the public don’t understand. So we have Vince Trujillo here, he has a few questions for you guys. And so what’s going on Vince? How you doing, brother?
Vince Trujillo: All right, yeah, thanks Robert. And thanks for having you guys on, too. This has been just amazing. I loved hearing about this. So from the public perspective, I’m not going to rehash some of what Robert’s already gone through, but it sounds like this is a program that we really need nationwide for some of these firefighter areas and giving firefighters an advanced sharpening so that they can… As you were saying, you go to this advanced training, you go to this elite training, you get trained in scenarios, in your school anyways, that were maybe, you said where people had died in, firefighters had died in. And then they can take that training back to where their local fire stations.
I’m wondering, why isn’t this accredited or maybe this is supported in training because it sounds like something that would be very, very useful? I know that would have to have somebody come up with a program that everyone accepts, or… I mean, what do you think is the best use of this if you wanted to grow it?
Bryan Lloyd: So, that’s a great question. And I’m going to be a politically correct as I can, here. So Georgia, back in the day, they did it through the state, their state fire college. And the short version is, once you get it in through an accredited agency and start pushing out of the state fire college, they weren’t happy with the pass rate. And people are paying to take this course. It’s not like every fire course you go to, where everyone gets their certificate at the end. And without getting too involved with what happened to them, they want to control their program. They wanted to be able to say, “This is what we’re going to focus on.” They just wanted control of it.
So they stepped away from the college and they started a 501(c). And that’s exactly what we did. $1.50 will get you a cup of coffee, but pretty much why it’s not… We want to keep control of it. We want to be able to say, “These are the things that we’re going to train on.” And the reality is, some people don’t like that everyone doesn’t pass. And that’s a real point of contention with a lot of departments. They don’t want to pay the money and send their firefighters to the training if they’re not going to pass or get a certificate.
But the interesting thing about this program is that… And we’re new. But Georgia’s kept a lot of data. And I want to say, and Chad, correct me if I’m wrong, but over 50% of people that don’t pass, they come back. Because even the guys that were just there for a couple days, you’re learning so much that they’re coming back. So without talking all day, it’s something that could definitely benefit every state, but it’s just hard to get a collegiate, to get a college and this program maybe on the same page. They’re looking at, students are paying and they’re giving them their hours. We’re not worried about that. We’re worried about teaching firefighters things that are going to save their life.
So in a perfect world, we could marry them together. And we’re actually in a unique situation here in Tulsa where we have a partnership with the community college. And that conversation has been had of, “Hey, could we offer this?” They’re still interested in it, but once I told them the pass rate, they balked a little bit at it. So that’s the hangup right there, to answer your question.
Robert Sanchez: Well, let’s be honest. So we’ve been firefighters for awhile, right, Brian and Chad? So there’s a way sometimes that you train, and then there’s a way sometimes that you do it on the job. Sometimes that happens. And I think my research with you guys’ program, I think you guys basically are training the way you play. You know what I mean? You’re training the way you actually go out and do the job in the field. And I see that’s the way your program rolls.
Chad Miller: And then the other, probably, part of your question is this. And Brian and I have been… He’s been the chief of training, I was one of his training officers. There’s no knock on fire departments. Every fire department is going to train their new hires coming in, and they train to a standard. This training is not for everybody by any means. And it’s not a knock. Because we fight that a lot. When we were beginning this program we were going to donors. We got that question asked of us a lot. “Why isn’t this just normal training for our firefighters?”
It’s a hire level, like you said, maybe. I don’t know that I would use advanced, but when you break it down at the end of the day it’s very basic skills. We’re not teaching anyone skills that aren’t taught to them in most of your basic cadet academies. The difference that we’re applying is the physical and mental fatigue that’s being applied to them. And like I said, all of our scenarios are 1403-compliant, but we’re trying to make that learning environment as stressful as we possibly can, to recreate that stress and get them to develop some critical decision-making skills.
So what we hope is like Brian said in the beginning, is, everybody that comes through our program is going to go back home to their department and they’re going to share. And that’s how you make the impact around. Brian joked about, we’re taking the world over. That’s what we want. We want smoke divers in every state, in every department and we want them to go back and teach. But we want them to do it humbly and with the servants. Servant leadership is a big staple of our programs and…
Vince Trujillo: Go ahead.
Chad Miller: Go ahead.
Vince Trujillo: So it just sounds like that would be ideal if you could get into more states, and I guess that would just be interesting to see how that could happen. And I think you are, maybe not advanced or elite and you want to be humble about it, I think the line-of-duty training is exceptional way of, let’s look at the biggest mistakes or maybe some of the biggest scenarios we’ve heard from, and then you train people up on that. That sounds just like a great thing to do, and I think that would just be very beneficial if you had that in more states. Do you have any plans on how to get that in more states, or do you have some kind of outline of that?
Chad Miller: So our program, if you look at the United States, we’re obviously the furthest west. We’re calling it the Midwestern Division, if you will. But luckily, when we had our first class, we had candidates from six states come to our qualification. Oklahoma, Texas, New Mexico, Kansas, Mississippi, or Missouri, and Arkansas. And when we graduated our class in March, we put the first smoke diver in Missouri. We put the first smoke diver in Arkansas. We added smoke divers in Kansas, Texas and Oklahoma.
So we’re slowly moving our way across the country. And anyone from the U.S. can come to our program. Like I said, Georgia has guys from Idaho, Oklahoma, Indiana. We’ve got a guy from Wisconsin. We’re spread out everywhere. So the goal is just to keep pushing and maybe somebody comes through our program from New Mexico and goes back and says, “Hey, I want to start a smoke diver program.” That’s the way it expands.
Vince Trujillo: Okay, that sounds great. So last question, thanks for everything you all do and the training that you have been going through, and trying to grow this. I think it’s an exceptional program, I’d like to hear more. So I made a mistake, actually. I actually talk to these guys and I called them smoke jumpers, and they said, “We’re not smoke jumpers.” So this is the stuff when I’m working with Robert now, I make mistakes like that. I don’t want to mess up someone’s rank or anything, but I do that all the time. So for those listening out there, smoke divers, that’s particular to your program or the group of states that you have? They all call themselves smoke divers?
Bryan Lloyd: Yeah. So, whenever I went through the program in 2003… I’m a big research nerd. I like to read, so I tried to track down, “Okay, why smoke divers?” Because at the time, my dad was living in Montana. They have the smoke jumpers there. So I have a smoke diver shirt, and everyone would assume I jump out of planes. Now so many people ask I just say, “Yeah, I jump out of planes.”
But basically, I heard from some older guys that have been through it, was firefighters used to just dive off into the smoke when they rolled up to a fire. Dive off into it. Jump off into it, dive off into it. Smoke divers. That’s how it was explained to me. So yeah, man. But yeah, I’ve been asked probably 100 times if I jump out of planes and now I just say, “Yep.” It’s easier than going into a half-hour explanation [crosstalk 00:45:49] firefighter.
Robert Sanchez: Exactly. It’s better. Especially if you don’t have time, just say, “Yeah, I jump out of planes.”
Vince Trujillo: Hey, thanks so much for having you guys on. I appreciate that. So, if people want to know how… So some of the firefighters listen, like Robert said. You had the website. Who should apply and how does that help you expand it into your state? So someone should apply who not only wants to test themselves, go through the rigor of it, have a challenge, but also have a servant attitude and someone who may want to bring that school to their own state? Is that who should be applying right now? What’s your pitch to some of these people listening?
Bryan Lloyd: Initially, Georgia, their informal policy was they wanted guys with, I think they used to say, two to three years on. But we want guys and girls that have been on long enough that learned how to be a firefighter. Would it help you coming straight from cadet school? Yeah, you’re still going to learn. But have a year or two or three years. Have a couple years on and get in the groove. You need to learn your job first, focus on that.
And then it’s really all of the things that you said, Vince. If you just want to tighten up your game or if you’ve got a servant’s heart and you want to go and bring this stuff back. Or maybe you’ve got a dream of bringing the program to your state. I can tell you this. I joke with the guys in Georgia that had we known how much work was involved, I don’t know that we would have done it. But once we started, it was like most firemen. It’s the challenge. “Oh, okay, you think I can’t do it? Well, watch this.”
But this program, it’s been a labor of love. No one gets paid. That’s another cool thing. I want to give props to our first class. We had, I don’t know, 80 instructors from Georgia, somewhere around there. We had instructors from Texas, all over the place. They all came into Tulsa for free. The Georgia guys, again, they compile data. It actually cost all the Georgia guys, I don’t know, I think it was 50 grand or something in all the time they took off and shift trades and getting covered. They all came on their own. No one’s getting paid.
That’s what’s so awesome about this program and why I love it so much, is we’re around like-minded people that… We’re here because we want to make the fire service better. So if that sounds interesting, or you want to just challenge yourself. All of the above, Vince. It’s anyone and everyone. You can benefit from this program.
Vince Trujillo: All right, yeah. Thank you all for being on so much. If everyone needs to get some information give us the website one more time.
Chad Miller: It’s www.oklahomasmokediver.com.
Vince Trujillo: All right, thanks so much guys. I’m going to turn it over to Robert now. I appreciate you on.
Robert Sanchez: So, all right, Chad and Brian. Well hey, it was an honor to have you guys on, man, and it was a treat for sure just to have you guys on. And I enjoy talking to firefighters all across the United States and that’s why I enjoyed being a PEP instructor also with Chad and just learning about things that are out there. Sometimes I think firefighters just don’t know everything that’s out there, and there’s a lot of things to learn. And your program seems like a good program.
One thing I think’s going to sell your guys’ program is just being that you teach your students to be humble when they go back to their community. And you encourage them to train the other firefighters on the techniques that you guys provide in your program, so I think that’s great. So again, thank you very much. Share us on your Facebook and we’ll put you guys in the FireFighter Kingdom Facebook also. And we’ll go from there. And again, Brian and Chad, thank you. It’s been a great time and some good information to share with the firefighters in the United States.
Bryan Lloyd: Thanks for having us on, man [crosstalk 00:49:45].
Chad Miller: Thanks for having us, man. It’s going to help our program and the more exposure we get, who knows? Maybe we’ll have four or five dudes from New Mexico in the next one. Because that’d be awesome.
Robert Sanchez: Absolutely. And yeah, when I’m next time in Oklahoma, man, I’ll meet up with you and Chad and we’ll have a cold one [crosstalk 00:49:57].
Bryan Lloyd: Oh yeah, for sure man.
Robert Sanchez: Me and Chad know what that’s like, right Chad?
Chad Miller: For sure.
Bryan Lloyd: All right, thanks again, bro [crosstalk 00:50:02].
Robert Sanchez: Have a good one, man. Thank you guys.
Bryan Lloyd: All right, later man.
Robert Sanchez: All right. Signing off from FireFighter Kingdom, Robert Sanchez, your host, and my cohost, producer Vince Trujillo. We’ll see you until next time.
Vince Trujillo: Hey, and everybody who’s listening right now, make sure you go to Apple Podcast, Spotify, you can also go to www.FireFighterKingdom.com. Check out our Facebook page too, FireFighter Kingdom, and we’ll see you on the next episode.
Robert Sanchez: Thank you.
Originally published at firefighterkingdom.com on September 15, 2020.
